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ChatGPT does a lot of that entry-level coding stuff for you nowadays. But if you want to be an expert, if you want to reach the senior status, then you need to learn how to code. You need to be at least an intermediate level coder if you ever want to be considered an expert in the field or you want to be a senior in the field.

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But if you're okay with staying at that entry-level or intermediate level, then you don't really need to grow your coding skills. But if you're like me and you want to be a true expert in the field, then coding is essential. Everything runs off code.

Everything. Every program that you're running, every tool you're running, there's code behind it. Hi, I'm Kyser Clark, and welcome to The Hacker's Cache, the show that decrypts the secrets of offensive security one byte at a time.

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Every week, I invite you into the world of ethical hacking by interviewing leading offensive security practitioners. If you are a penetration tester, bug bounty hunter, red teamer, or blue teamer who wants to better understand the modern hacker mindset, whether you are new or experienced, this show is for you. Thank you so much for tuning in.

Today, we have another Q&A episode where you, the viewer slash listener, submits questions to me to answer on the show. For those who are new to the show, there's multiple types of episodes. The most common type of episode you're going to come across is where I bring in a guest, another expert in the field, and I interview them and ask them questions and get their insights and expertise on a particular topic.

And we just have a conversation to help you grow better in your career as an offensive security professional or cyber security professional. This is also a show for blue teamers as well. If you're a blue teamer, tip my cat out to you.

We love our blue teamers. I also do solo episodes. I do those once a quarter.

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And the Q&A episodes are once per month, and they are the third episode of every single month. And that's what you're listening to, watching right now, Q&A. If you want to submit questions for the show, the best way to do that is go over to my Discord server.

You can get the link in the channel slash podcast description. Go into the Discord server. You'll see a section called Hacker's Cache Questions.

Go in there, pop your question. And I'll see that and I will answer it on the show. Next best way is to leave a comment on the Q&A episodes on YouTube.

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And other YouTube comments are also eligible for questions for the Q&A episodes. With that being said, let's go ahead and dive into our first question. So the first question is, what are the later stages of a pen tester career path? So this is a good question because there's a handful of options.

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So once you get your first job as a pen tester, we talk about how to break in as a pen tester all the time. But what happens after you break in to the field as a pen tester? Well, there's multiple things you can do. You can go to a senior pen tester, which is more or less the same.

You're going to take on some leadership roles, such as, you know, help the junior members out. You're going to be expected to carry out exploits by yourself. You're going to be tasked with consulting by yourself.

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You're not going to be handheld by a manager as much. And your pay is going to increase, but your responsibilities are also going to increase. So that's an option right there.

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Senior pen tester. Another option you have is red team professional. So red teamers are threat actor emulators.

So there's a difference between a red teamer and a pen tester. A pen tester, not really emulating a threat actor. You are performing some of the similar attacks, but a pen tester isn't emulating a threat actor nowhere near as much as what a red teamer would emulate a threat actor.

So if you want to get into the real hacker stuff, then red teamers is where it's at. Because I would say right now as a pen tester, one thing that I thought I was going to be doing was I thought it was going to be more, I felt like I was going to be more like a threat actor, but I'm not. I'm just testing the technical controls in an application or a network.

And I'm not emulating a threat actor at all. And that was kind of a wake up call for me because I didn't really expect that once I got into my pen testing position. It's not a bad thing, but because some people, you know, they, they don't want to emulate threat actors and being a pen tester is good for them.

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But if you want to truly emulate a threat actor, then your goal would be to become a red teamer, red team engineer, some flavor like that. You can also, once you become a red teamer, you can go to senior red teamer, which is pretty much the same thing, just more responsibilities, pay increases, but also so do the responsibilities. Another thing you can do is you can go on your own.

You can become a freelance pen tester. You can go, go out in the world and find your own clients and perform pen tests yourself and not have to work for a company and you can work yourself. Now, obviously that's challenging in itself because you have to set up a lot of things for that to happen.

And you have to go out and find a sales. You know, when you work for a company, you don't have to find a sale. So you just, you get the work handed to you and you just go out and do the task, which is what I think a lot of people want to do because most of us in the field are introverted and we don't want to go out there and be like, Hey, I can pen test your app for you and try to get sales.

But if you're in the business side of things and you are business savvy and you want to take on a sales type role as well as a pen tester type role, then you can go freelance. If you don't want to do sales, you can also freelance Bug Bounty. Bug Bounty, we've talked about on the show a handful of times, but basically these Bug Bounty platforms, they're open for everyone and there's no sales that has to happen.

They're just like, Hey, this company, for example, Tesla or the United States government, the United States government also has Bug Bounty stuff and plenty of companies do this. So, Hey, we have this, this set of websites. You can find a bug in it and we'll pay you this much.

You know, we'll pay you this much for a low, we'll pay this much for a critical and et cetera. And they're willing, the details are already there. You don't have to negotiate a sale there.

So if you want to be freelance, but you don't want to do the salesy stuff, then Bug Bounty is the way you can go. And you don't even need to have experience to do Bug Bounty. You can just, you can just do it.

I would say, if you want to be a freelancer, you probably need some sort of experience beforehand because no one's going to purchase a pen test off of you or a red team engagement off of you if you don't have any experience. So that is, I would say being a freelancer is more of a later stage thing for a pen tester, but Bug Bounty can be anytime. You can start literally right now with no experience.

And if you find a bug, you find a bug. But I think that's pretty much it. I mean, you can strive for management type roles.

You can, you can get out of the technical work and you can go into management type roles. I mean, my manager, he doesn't do pen tests right now. He did plenty of pen tests in the past, but as the company grew, he took more of a, more of a leadership role and he's more or less managing a handful of pen testers now.

And that's an option for you as well. If you want to be a manager, then you can do that. Or you can stay technical.

If you want to stay technical, you don't have to become a manager. You don't have to be a senior pen tester. You can, you can diversify your skill sets.

For example, and a lot of the work we do as pen testers is network pen tests or web app pen tests, but there's other kinds of pen tests. There's wireless, there's IOT, there's mobile, there's car hacking, hardware hacking, there is social engineering, there is physical pen testing, and there's so many different flavors of pen tests that you can get into. And you can, instead of being a manager, you can learn those other types of pen testing.

And you can do those for your company or a different company. So there's a lot of options out there. And honestly, you can't do them all.

You can't do them all. There's just too many options out there. You have to really pick one and, and stick with it.

And I would say there's tons of things to learn. And I would say, just go where you want to go. And you're going to understand where you want to go once you get in the field.

And even if you get into pen testing, if you just want to stay a pen tester, that's okay too. If you just want to be like, yeah, I just want to be a network pen tester, then get better at network pen testing because you can spend a lifetime doing just network pen tests. Or if you're a web app pen tester, you can spend a lifetime learning all the ins and outs of web apps.

And you can get really good at one thing or you can get pretty good at a lot of things. So it's really just, the world is your oyster. Once you get that first job, there's so many things you can do.

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But I would say overall, you know, senior pen tester, red teamer, manager, or a specialist going after those weird, those weird pen tests, which is IoT hacking, mobile hacking, car hacking, stuff like that is, is really some of the other options you have. There's obviously other options out there that I didn't even think of. Because I'm still learning what right there with you guys.

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I'm not, I don't know everything, by any means. I never pretend to know everything. But that's from what I understand, that's the most common options.

But as we progress through time, there's going to be other doors that open up for especially with AI. AI is unlocking doors every day. I mean, prompt engineer, that wasn't a job before.

So now you can be an AI pen tester. That's another one too. So there's going to be all kinds of AI pen testing type roles that are going to start opening up as well.

And you can, you can definitely get something like that. So just because you got a set of doors open now, doesn't mean those are going to be the doors that's going to be open for you for the rest of your career. So as time goes on, and the industry and the job market changes, there's going to be more opportunities available.

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And then there's also going to be some jobs that close down. So old technologies get outdated, new technologies come in. And that's what makes it feel exciting.

I'm excited to announce that memberships are now live for my YouTube channel. And if you decide to become a member, you'll get early access to videos, access to member only polls, loyalty badges for the YouTube channel chat and priority reply to the YouTube comments. Of course, if you can't or don't want to become a member, that is totally fine.

I will always release the same free content you've come to expect. And your support just by watching is more than enough to keep the channel going. But for those who do join, your contribution helps invest into new tools, technologies, and people to help the channel go further.

The goal is to create even more content and raise the quality of every video for everyone. Thank you for considering memberships. And as always, thank you so much for your support.

Moving on to the next question. Tell me if this path for certificates is good. I would like to start as a sock analyst, security plus, OSDA, and then OSCP.

I see that more and more required certificates for sock analysts include OSCP. Now Blue Team Level 1 is also appreciated. And so far I've noticed CCD from Cyber Defenders and CDSA from Hack the Box are also good.

Please, if you can give me advice on whether I missed any certificate and which of the ones I have listed, would you recommend? So this is a lot here because you're giving me a lot of certifications. But I think you're on the right track, right? OSCP, the gold standard in offense and security certifications right now. And when I say gold standard, I mean it's the most popular and most in demand.

It's not necessarily the best. I'm starting to realize that as someone who has OSCP, there's a lot of things I wish it would have told me that it didn't tell me. But it is the gold standard in terms of what's in the most demand.

But as a defender, knowing that offensive security skill set is going to be, that sets you apart. Not very many Blue Teamers are doing that. They're just not.

I know a lot of Blue Teamers out there that don't even touch the offense security stuff. So if you get OSCP as a defender, you're like a light year ahead of everybody else. So I would say that's a good one to get.

Definitely not mandatory because there's plenty of Blue Teamers out there that doesn't have OSCP. But if you do get it, you're going to be shining above the rest when it comes to applying for jobs. And then when you're even on the job, you're going to be able to detect exploits so much better because you're going to be like, oh, I know what this is.

I've done this exploit before, you know, because OSCP requires a pretty broad knowledge of different exploits out there, both on Linux and Windows. Blue Team Level 1, it's also a very popular one. Can't go wrong with that one.

CCD from Cyber Defenders. I've actually never heard of that one. So sorry that I don't know about that one, but the CDSA for Hack the Box, that's one that I've also been eyeballing.

I also typically recommend checking out the OSDA from Ofsec. It's another Ofsec cert, but it's the Blue Team Ofsec cert, OSDA. And then there is, that stands for Ofsec Defense Analyst.

And then there's also the Ofsec Threat Hunter, that's the OSTH. The Ofsec IR, that's Instant Responder. And then you also got to consider the TCM Security, PSA, the Practical Security Analyst Associate.

So there's actually a lot of hands-on Blue Team certs that just recently came out. Hack the Box came out with one, Ofsec has came out with three now, and TCM Security came out with one as well. So I will also look into those if you're trying to become a defender.

The more hands-on certs you get, the better. In my opinion, you can't really go wrong with any of them because I would say they're all equally in demand because they all kind of came out about the same time. I think the OSDA for Ofsec came out before those other ones, but I'm pretty sure the Blue Team Level 1 came out before all of them.

So Blue Team Level 1 might give you the most recognition, but I know Blue Team Level 1 is, that's more of a European cert, so it might not have as much weight here in the United States. But if you're in Europe, I think Blue Team Level 1 might be your best option. But overall, as long as you're doing some hands-on certification, you're doing good.

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I don't think you missed any. Well, I guess I just mentioned a bunch that you missed, but it's not about missing them. It's more about, hey, be aware of these and you might want to consider going after these other certifications.

So definitely check out the CCM and the Ofsec Defender Certifications. And you don't need them all. I would say just pick a handful and then go from there.

This question is really good because it came from, this is a question that was asked on the last Q&A episode about when I was talking about AI. And this question is, which domain is safest one against AI? And that's a really good question because what domain is the safest against AI? And in my opinion, out of all the tech roles, I think cybersecurity is the safest against AI out of all the tech roles. Why? Because cybersecurity is so hard.

It's so difficult. And out of all the cybersecurity positions, I think the number one that's safe is Office Security Professionals. So if you're an Office Security Professional and you want to get into it, I think it's the safest.

I think most of the audience is Office Security, that's why I made this episode for, specifically for Office Security Professionals. But even the Blue Teamers, you're pretty safe against AI as well. But I think Office Security Professionals are even a little bit safer than the Blue Teamers, just because AI can't hack.

It just can't. I mean, have you guys ever done a hack the box machine and you asked AI how to solve the problem? And it just can't, like it can't solve some of the easiest problems that there is. And it really requires a human intuition to get through those easy, easy challenges.

When it comes to which domain is the least safest against AI? In cybersecurity, I'm not talking about all of that. I'm just specifically talking about all of cybersecurity. And I could be wrong here.

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But my hunch, my guess, my educated guess, is GRC, Governance Risk Compliance. For those who don't know what Governance Risk Compliance is, it's basically risk management, policy enforcement, policy writing, the legal stuff, all the boring legal mumbo jumbo that no one wants to do. Well, there are people that want to do it, people like that stuff.

Like for people like me, who's like really technical, we would rather much, much rather do the technical work. And I could be wrong here, but I feel like one of the reasons why Governance Risk Compliance is so lucrative is because it's so hard to find people that's willing to do that because it is boring. It's a lot of reading.

It's like reading the fine print of like a user agreement, you know, like it's just a lot of pages of words, man. And the reason why I know this is because my, both my degrees, both my master's and my bachelor's degree is in cybersecurity management policy. It's all GRC, that's all it is.

It's not technical at all. And the reason why I put myself through those degree programs was to learn the non-technical stuff of cybersecurity because I have a lot of technical skills, a lot of technical certifications, and my job is extremely technical. And having school, you know, complement me in the non-technical realm really helped me out.

And I'll tell you right now, it's not hard to do. In my opinion, I don't think it's hard to do. I don't think GRC is hard to do.

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It's hard because it's tedious and it's boring. That's why I find it hard. And that's why it's lucrative.

But I think AI, it can parse a document in a matter of moments. Ask me how I know. I use for school, all my school assignments, and I'm blazing by my school assignments just like that because AI does like 80% of the work.

All I have to do is, I just got to, it's basically my assistant. It's like, I'll go find some research and I'll find an article that looks good. I don't even got to read it all.

I just got to say, Hey, what's this article say? Does it fit my narrative that I'm trying to type? Yes, no. And then I'll tell you right now, like I said, my degree is in government compliance. Now don't get me wrong.

I understand that college is not the real world. Okay. So I'm not going to try to pretend like I know everything about government compliance.

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I am just a student at the end of the day. But what I do know is that ChattyBT makes it extremely easy and it saves me a lot of time, right? Because I was a student before ChattyBT existed and it used to take me, it used to take me an hour, a page. So if I had a 10 page paper, it would take me 10 hours to make it.

Now I can crank out a 10 page paper in an hour. So it basically 10x my work. And that's the power of ChattyBT.

And ChattyBT is really good at it too. I use ChattyBT a lot. It's my go-to and you can apply it.

When I say ChattyBT, you can use that word. You can replace that ChattyBT with other large volume models, such as Copilot and what's the other one, Claude. And what's the new one that came out, DeepSea.

All these large volume models, they function, they're obviously different in their own ways, but for the most part, they're about the same. You know what I'm trying to say is like, I use them all the time and it doesn't help me that much when I'm trying to solve a hack-the-box machine. It just doesn't give me the answers I'm looking for.

Almost never, like very rarely does it like actually help me hack into a machine. But I'll tell you right now, when I tell it to write a new policy in my schoolwork, it cranks it out very well, very fast. So I think overtrust compliance is probably the most prone, the least safe, safest against AI.

And then the most safe is probably offensive security professionals. The more technical you are, the safer you are, in my opinion. And then another thing is, you know, what's the point of AI? AI, the whole reason of AI is to get rid of redundant, mundane tasks.

And that's all GRC is, man, for the most part. I mean, yeah, it takes some human intuition, here and there, but a lot of it's just reviewing policies and that's a mundane task. And that's what AI excels at.

Now, like I said, I could be wrong. I don't work as a GRC professional in the real world, but I'd say right now it's helped me fly through school. Moving on to the next question.

What level of training do you have with Python? Any good recommendations on this front? So my level of training was once at the intermediate level. I consider myself an intermediate programmer, but since ChadWT came out, my skills have deteriorated a lot. And I talked about this in one of my YouTube videos about coding for cybersecurity professionals.

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And my skills went down because I relied too much on ChadWT, because ChadWT is pretty good coding. It can code small programs very efficiently and effectively. Now, keep in mind, I say small.

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Once you start getting the larger programs, that's when it starts to suck. So I don't think it's going to replace developers anytime soon, but I think it could, because it's pretty good at writing code, at least the basic stuff. There's actually an article I saw that talked about how ChadWT passed an entry-level coding interview.

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And I talked about AI replacing coders in the last Q&A episode, so I'm not going to dive too much into it now. But more of what I'm trying to say is AI has made my skills deteriorate, and that's why I started up streaming my coding sessions for every Thursdays. I'm doing Thursdays now.

It's subject to change all the time, but I'm doing Thursdays, and the reason why I'm coding every Thursday is because I want my skills to go back up to the intermediate level, because it's so essential, in my opinion, to be a good coder. Not to be a good coder, but to be a good pen tester, I need to be a decent coder, right? I want to get back at that intermediate level. Right now, I think I'm a little bit above the beginner level.

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I just got to put in the reps, and I can get back up to the intermediate level. But my recommendation here, when it comes to programming, and I said this in the programming video, and I highly recommend watching it if you want to learn more about my opinions and thoughts on coding for a cybersecurity career. Coding is what separates an average cybersecurity professional from a good cybersecurity professional.

Someone commented on that video, and if you're listening, thanks for tuning in. Not to, with all due respect, I disagree with you, and he said, or she said, the comment said something along the lines of, you don't need to know how to code to be in cybersecurity, and I agree with that. I agree with that.

You don't need to know how to code to get your first job. You don't even need to be a very good coder to make a good living, right? Like I said, ChattyBD does a lot of that entry-level coding stuff for you nowadays, but if you want to be an expert, if you want to reach the senior status, then you need to learn how to code, and you need to be at least an intermediate level coder if you ever want to be considered an expert in the field, or you want to be a senior in the field, but if you're okay with staying at that, you know, entry-level or intermediate level, then you don't really need to grow your coding skills, but if you're like me, and you want to be a true expert in the field, then coding is essential. Everything runs off code.

Everything. Every program that you're running, every tool you're running, there's code behind it, man, and to truly understand the code, the tool, you have to understand the code. Your exploits and codes behind it.

So overall, yeah, you don't need to be a coder. You don't need to be a developer. You don't even need to be that good at coding.

Heck, you don't even really need to know how to code to get started in your career, but if you want to reach the expert level, it's essential, and there's nothing wrong with staying at the entry level or if you want to stay at the intermediate level. If you don't want to be an expert, then that's okay, but I have a hunch that many of you want to reach the higher upper echelon of the field because you're putting in time listening to this podcast, and that tells me that you are very serious about your career, and that's what this podcast is for, people who are serious about their career, and if you're not serious about your career, I mean, welcome aboard. Glad to have you here, but yeah, if you're listening to this podcast, you're putting in more work than I would say a lot of people out there, so kudos to you for that.

All right, man, we are on question number five already. Let's go ahead and do question number five. This is going to be the last one.

This one's a long one. Currently, 19, graduated with an associate of science in cybersecurity this May. Got my A-plus and going for AWS Cloud Practitioner and Network Plus now.

Have my AWS test next month. Wish me luck. Good luck on AWS test.

After that, hopefully, going to go for CCNA and try to get a network engineer role no matter what. I like that attitude, no matter what. I have basic Python and C++, but I was wondering, while obtaining certs, which take up like two, three hours a day for me, should I focus on hacking the box machines more or more on Python, maybe HTML, JavaScript, CSS? And there's really no right answer here.

My answer is do as much as you can with the time you have. And what I'm doing, this is what I'm doing right now, and you can mimic me all you want. What I do is Monday through Friday, I get off work at 6 o'clock p.m. and I will study from about 6.30 to 7 o'clock at night.

I'll start at 6.30 to 7 o'clock and I'll go for three hours. So, you know, if I start at 7, that means I end at 10. And I don't really end at 10 because I take a couple of breaks in between there.

I got to take a couple, go get a couple of drinks, go to the bathroom. So it's more, I usually end about 11. So I go from about 7 to 11 studying for a certification.

And I do that Monday through Friday. I even do that on the weekends too. The weekends I make content and I spend all day, Saturday and Sunday, making content.

But before I make the content, I will spend three hours studying for my certification. The certification studies take priority over everything. And I'm starting to routine.

It wasn't always like that. There was a time where I was only working on content, but once I got good at making the content, then I had more time available for study. But that's what I'm doing now.

And then I'm doing my streams on Monday. So I'm not really studying all that much on my Mondays because I'm streaming, but I'm doing some sort of study. I mean, hide the box and try to hack me.

And I do Port Swigger Web Security Academy. All of those challenges is a form of studying. So I'm learning something there, even though it's not for a certification.

And then on Friday, sorry, Thursdays, I'm doing my coding sessions for an hour. So I'm doing certification studies and I'm doing try to hack the box and coding all at the same time. And I'm a full time college student.

Like I said, I'm going for a master's degree in cybersecurity management policy. And for that, I usually, I will usually take two hours, two to three hours out of my week to do my schoolwork. That's literally all I spend on my school.

I'm considered a full time college student. And I hope my school doesn't kick me out for saying this, but Chattavity really helps me out a lot. It saves me a lot of time.

Without Chattavity, I would probably be spending way more time on school. And like, I know what it feels like to not have Chattavity because I was a student way before Chattavity. And I'm producing the same quality work.

It's just I'm doing them at lightning speeds now. And yeah, so I'll take three to five hours a week for schoolwork. And that cuts into my certification studies as well.

So that's what I'm doing. I'm doing schoolwork, certification studies, hack the box, try to hack me. And I'm doing coding sessions now.

I'm doing content creation. And I have my full time pen testing job. I do that for 40 hours a week.

And I have to do my social media management as well. So not only am I making content, but I also have to manage the accounts to make the posts, advertise the posts. So I'm my own social media manager as well, my own video editor as well.

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I'm doing all this stuff. That's what I'm doing. I'm doing everything I can.

So that's my advice. Do everything you can. Everyone has the same amount of time.

Obviously, I don't have any children. I don't have a girlfriend or a spouse either. So I basically just do the work.

And that's all I do because I don't have a whole lot of responsibility taking care of the people. So because of that, I can focus a lot of my work. Now, when I was in a relationship, I would take several timeouts a week to hang out with my girlfriend.

But now that I'm not in a relationship anymore, it's more or less just me working all the time now. So what I'm trying to say is, if you've got other responsibilities, don't feel bad if you're not doing as much work as me because very few people don't have responsibilities like me. You know what I mean? If that makes sense.

And so back to your exact question. So that's just kind of what I'm doing now. But back to your exact question, would you focus on more Python or Hack the Box machines or coding Hack the Box machines? I would say your Hack the Box is probably more important than your coding.

And that's exactly what I'm doing. My Hack the Box and try hacking streams are anywhere between two to five hours. My coding streams are only one hour.

(34:02 - 34:56)

So I'm spending more time. I don't think you have to put a lot of time into coding. I think coding is really just like a couple hours a week tops is all you have to do if you already have a baseline skill set.

Now, if you're just getting started with coding, you definitely want to go all in. You definitely want to go all in until you get to the intermediate level. Once you get to the intermediate level, you just need to spend a couple hours a week to get the rust off.

And because like I said earlier, coding isn't super essential. You don't need to be a developer or anything. And I would say intermediate level is more than adequate.

You can definitely reach the expert status, the senior status for whatever job you're in. If you are an intermediate coder programmer, hopefully that makes sense. And if you have any more questions, feel free to reach out.

(34:57 - 36:03)

Once again, go to the Discord server, go to the Hacker's Cache section and drop your questions there. Leave a comment on the YouTube video for this episode. And then the last one I didn't mention at the beginning of the episode is you can also email me, Kyser at Kyserclerk.com with your questions.

Thank you so much for watching. Thanks for listening. If you haven't reviewed the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, please do so.

You could use another five star rating. It helps the show out tremendously. Share the show with your friends.

If you get value out of these episodes and you have friends who are also trying to become cybersecurity professionals or are already a cybersecurity professional, do me a favor, share the show with them. I would greatly appreciate it. That would help this show tremendously right now.

If you're on YouTube, hit the subscribe button, hit the like button. If you're on audio, give me that five star review if you think the show deserves it. Thank you so much for watching.

Again, thanks for listening. Hope I see you in the next episode. Until then, this is Kyser, signing off.