Welcome to the Hacker's Cache, the show that decrypts the secrets of cybersecurity one bite at a time. I'm your host, Kyser Clark. In this episode, we're going to be talking about burnout a little bit more and how to manage that.

And I'm also going to answer the question of, is burnout inevitable? Can it be avoided? And ultimately, like, what is a good work-life balance in cybersecurity? Before we get into the topic at hand for this episode, I do want to expand on some points that I made in the previous episode, which was actually my second most watched video, sorry, not a video, but a podcast episode in only a week. So that one really resonated with a lot of you, and I've had a lot of people reach out to me.

I'm not going to mention any names, but you know, you are about burnout. It is a problem in this industry, in this field. And that's why that's the topic of, of this episode.

So this is going to be an extension to the last episode. So if you didn't listen to the last episode, I highly recommend going back and listening to and watching that one before you get into this one. However, if you don't feel like it, this one will stay in on its own, but I do want to expand on some points that I made on the last episode, not really expand on points, but I do want to mention a couple of things that I forgot to mention in the last episode.

So I talked about, you know, why I got burned out and you know, what happened and why I took a break. I just forgot to mention because I don't really script these out. And I, I want to mention that I also took a long break in cybersecurity because.

You know, getting let go from a position to me at the time was pretty embarrassing and it took a long time for me to like come to terms and like share that publicly. And I do want to mention that you guys, if you do get fired from your job, if you do get let go, if you get laid off, whatever the case is, like that happens to a lot of people and you can't let it stop you from moving forward. Like it did me like, I actually regret taking six months off of cybersecurity.

I really do. I wish I could go back in time and only give myself like a month or two off instead of six months, but you know, I can't get that time back. So don't let it bother you as much as it did me, especially for me.

Like, cause I'm a public figure, I'm using air quotes for the listeners, you know, failing in public to me wasn't, it isn't a good look. It's not the best look. And I mean, to be honest, it's not, but it's not.

It doesn't define me and it doesn't, and it doesn't prevent me from being successful in the future. It's just, it's just a new direction and it took me a while to figure that out. So if that does happen to you, if you do get let go, you do get fired.

Like it happens guys. There's just tons of a great people in this field who've been let go, been laid off and they have killer careers. There's tons of people that's not even in our field that got fired for whatever reason and they ended up having a great career, so you can't let that, you can't let that bother you long-term like it did me.

So there's a piece of advice there. So back on burnout. So that's the main topic at hand.

And the reason why I want to talk about burnout is because like I said, multiple people have reached out to me privately talking about how that podcast episode deeply resonated with them, and I know it did because that it's my second most watched podcast episode, and it's only been out for a week and it's probably going to surpass my number one in a week or two, and it's probably going to be my number one podcast episode for a pretty long time, but we'll see what happens with the podcast, but the moral story is it got a lot of views because it resonated with a lot of people because burnout is so prevalent in this field. And then also some of the comments were talking about, you know, how to making cybersecurity your life and then like, you know, some people were mentioning why, how do you avoid burnout when you have to work so hard to get in this field? So we're going to cover all of that. So the first thing I want to talk about is like, is burnout inevitable? Can you avoid it? And this, I could be wrong here, but I don't think it is avoidable.

I think it's just something that everybody goes through at some point in time, especially in this field, because you do have to work a lot in this field. You do have to put a lot of time in after work in this field, right? And I did mention in that last podcast episode that I'm going to start slowing down, remember I said, I said I was legitimately spending 80 to 90 hours a week for five, six years straight. And that's a, that's a fact.

And I said, I'm going to slow down. And when I say I'm going to slow down, I'm saying I want to do like 50, 60, 70 hours a week. Right.

I said, 80, 90, 50, 60, 50 to 70 is what I'm trying to do. So my 40 hours day job plus, you know, 10 to 30 hours more on top of that throughout the week. So I am going to slow down a little bit, but I'm still running.

So I think analogy is, you know, I w so I did mention this in a comment. So breaking this field requires a stupid amount of work. Like there's, there's no work-life balance if you're trying to break it.

Like if you're on outside looking in, you're trying to get in, there is no work-life balance. That is a given. You cannot, you cannot expect to break in this field.

If you're only willing to spend an hour or two a day studying for your certifications and getting your skills, like you need to be putting three to five hours in a day, every single day after work, and you do need to spend five to 10 hours, five to 12 hours a day on the weekends. And that's what I did. I did it for years.

It was, it's very common. It was very common for me to do three to four hours a day after work, after my Air Force job, after I got home. And then on the weekends, legitimately eight to 12 hours of study.

And that's what it took. And I did that for five years before I got out of the military and landed my first pen testing job, maybe even a little longer than that, because I, I think my first year of the Air Force, I really wasn't putting a lot of time in after work, but then after my first year, I started going to school and getting my more certs after my first year of being active duty Air Force cyber defense operations. And I don't regret that at all, at all.

That was a necessary sacrifice, a necessary thing that I had to do to get out of the military and ultimately land my first pen testing job, making over six figures. So that's, that's a requirement. If you're expecting a work-life balance and you're outside the field, then you're not going to make it.

And that's the cold hard truth. I did mention in the last episode that the job market is terrible right now. It's hard to break into this field.

It has ever since this podcast has existed and it's getting worse and worse every day because they are placing entry-level roles and their economy isn't in the best shape. Let's be honest here. And the entire economy is based on AI right now.

And when the AI bubble pops, if it ever pops, I'm not saying it will, but there's a good chance that will. But if it does, when it does, it's going to be worse. So you guys need to prepare for that.

And that's why I was going so hard. Someone asked me, like, someone asked me in the comments of that last podcast episode, like, why did you go so hard? Why did you do it? And I'm like, my theory was one, AI is replacing everybody. And that's a fact.

Two, the wealth gap is getting bigger and bigger. So the rich people are getting more rich and the poor people are getting more poor. And I don't know about you guys, but I'm on, I'm more on the poor side.

If, if you know what I'm saying you know, I'm not, I'm not in the upper class and I'm trying to escape. I'm trying to get away from the middle class and go to the upper class. And that's why I work so hard because I do, I, I do see a feature where this is going to get philosophical and political here a little bit, but I think it explains why I work so hard and I work as much as I did because I do think at a certain point, if you don't have the skills, knowledge, network, and the resources, AKA money, then you're going to be perpetually in the lower class or middle class and the middle class is getting smaller and smaller and it's either you're going to be in the lower class.

You're going to be an upper class and it's going to be either, or, and if you're in the middle class, like I am, like you're either going to go in the upper class or you're going to go in the lower class and the people who don't put in the work, I would say 90% of people probably going to go from middle class to lower class and then the 10% of people who do put in the effort and energy to like level up and make those connections, allocate their resources appropriately, grow their skills, they're going to go in upper class and then the middle class is going to be almost non-existent. So try not to be too doom and gloom, but I, that's how I view the world and because I view the world that way, that's why I work so hard and I'm still motivated to work hard. I did say I'm going to slow down, but when I say I'm gonna slow down, like I said, I'm doing, instead of doing 80, 90 hours a week, let me do 50, 60, 70 hours a week and including weekends, like I still want to work on the weekends.

Like, I think, I think that's necessary to, for, for me to escape the middle class, which is ultimately my goal. Like my goal was to reach financial freedom and I think cybersecurity is a great way to do that. And that's why I'm in this field.

I'm not in it for only the money, because if I was, I would have been burned out a long time ago. Let me put it that way. I do enjoy this field.

I am passionate about it and I'm very good at it too. And that's why I'm in the field. Right.

I thought about changing professions because I got so burned out and I'm just like, why would I change professions when I'm so good at what I do? And so that's why I'm sticking with cybersecurity and I'm just trying to switch from a consultant, pen testing role to a non-consultant role. And that's what I'm looking for now. So that kind of explains why I work so hard.

And I think, and I think that's good advice. Like if you're, if you're serious about, you know, providing your family and yourself with a life worth living in the future, because I see the future being like, like a corporation dystopia. I hate to say that, but that's where kind of where we're going to.

And I, it kind of scares me. Like, I'm not really, I'm like, it looks a little bleak if you don't put in the work. Now it's going to look good if you're in, like, if you manage to escape the middle class and you go to the upper class, like it's going to be great.

Like you're going to be able to have a really good life, but you got to put in the work now. Cause I genuinely believe, I genuinely believe that the American dream is going to be non-existent within the next couple of decades, like we still have a chance to escape poverty. We still have a chance to get out of the middle class, but it gets, it gets harder and harder.

I mean, just look at the housing market, for example, right? Hardly any, anybody can buy a house when back in the day it used to be so common. And that's just an example. So, and it's just going to get harder and harder.

And that's one of the reasons why I work so hard because this, this is a very good paying field. As I mentioned in that last podcast episode, I mentioned it several times. It's a good paying field guys.

And if you put in the work, it will provide for you financially. And there is a way to financial freedom if you put in the work, but you got to put in the work and that's where the burnout happens because it takes a lot. And like I said, I don't regret putting in the work that I did.

I really don't. I, I regret, I actually regret taking six months off more than I, than working eight to nine hours a week. So my advice would be this.

If you're looking to break in the field, you gotta be, you gotta be on it. You gotta be hitting the labs every day, three to five hours a day, eight to 12 hours on the weekends. And you need to do that for five years after work, depending on what, what kind of role you're in.

Now, if you're in help and assistance management, that's what I was doing. I would recommend putting in as much work as you can. If you're not in tech already, you probably got to put in more.

That's hard to say. If you're working at like a construction job or something, then, you know, you, you don't have any tech experience or if you're working on a restaurant or you're just a college student, like you got to put in the work and that's just how it is breaking this field. Cause it's really hard to break in this field right now.

And it's a tough, it's a very tough job market right now. Now, once you break in, now this is where I do regret a little bit. Like once I got my first pentesting job out of the military, I wish, I wish I would've enjoyed life a little bit more.

I did mention that. And it is one of my top priorities. Like I am working on personal relationships.

I am working on my personal life, but that doesn't mean I'm giving up on my career. Like I still want to put a lot of effort into my career. So I think once you get that first job in cybersecurity, like you can slow down.

I think a good analogy is, you know, you're going to need a sprint to get in. And then once you get in, you know, go from a sprint to a run. You still got to run because it, the field's constantly adapting, constantly changing, new technologies coming all the time, new frameworks, new AI's very, very rapidly changing and AI is the greatest risk right now in terms of like job security, but also inside of security.

Cause there's a lot of security risks when companies implement AI. So knowing AI is prevalent these days. I did.

Speaking of that, I do like to keep you guys updated on my journey. If you didn't catch my video or if you didn't see my LinkedIn post, I did pass a CompTIA SecAI Plus just recently. So that was a pretty cool win for me.

And I am going to get more AI search down the road. Everyone keeps asking me which ones you just have to wait till I get it. And then you'll see.

So yeah, guys, that's, that's kind of what it takes to be in this field. And if you're not willing to put in the work, then you're not, you're not going to make it, then that's just the reality of the situation. You got to be very passionate about this.

If you're not passionate about it, you will burn out way faster than I did because I am passionate about it. And I still burned out. I'm not in it just for the money, because if I wanted more money, I'd probably do something else.

A matter of fact, I, you know, pen testers generally pay a little bit less than like a cybersecurity engineer, for example, right? I have, I have friends who are working in cyber defense who have put in way less work than me in terms of certifications and study hours at the work, but then they got paid more than me. I chose pen testing, not for the money, but for passion. Now that I'm getting out of pen testing and I'm trying to go to more potentially to cyber defense positions, there is an opportunity for me to make more money, which is really cool, but that's not the reason I've just burned out.

The money's nice, but that's not the only reason I'm in this field. Like I said, I'm really good at it at this. And someone made a comment on that, said I'm in school and I failed my sec plus.

I'm about to take it again. I'm already burned out. I'm like, bro.

And I literally said this, I'm sorry to say, but if you're burned out from school and sec plus, then you're not going to make it straight up. That's easy. You're on easy mode right now.

School is easy. Sec plus is easy. And if you're already burned out, you're not going to make it because that's the, that's not even, it's like, that's such a basic stuff.

And if you're burning out that early on, you're not going to make it. I would highly, highly suggest looking at a different field for real. And I'm not trying to be mean, but that's just reality.

Like you got to be like me, like, when did I burn out? Well, I burned out after I got some of the most top certifications. I got OSCP, OSWA, CISSP, you know, some of the most prestigious certifications on the market. And you know, and when I went to there's cause there's harder certifications than those ones.

And I burned out trying to get the expert level stuff, right. Because right now I'm at like the intermediate level, the mid level, because OSCP is like a middle thing, you know, or, and CISSP is a managerial thing. CISSP is pretty hard to get, but there's still, there's, there's the CISSP concentrations.

There's harder ones than the CISSP. So I burned out trying to go from that mid-level to expert level, mid-level to senior level. That's, that's when my burnout happened.

If you can't get to the entry level or you can't get to the mid-level, then your career is going to be pretty short because it requires a stupid amount of work guys, and there's no coasting. I didn't mention that in my last podcast, but there's no coasting in this field. So that goes back to that question.

Is burnout inevitable? I think it is. And I did say this and I don't regret saying this, but I am on the record saying I don't look at burnout as a bad thing because burnout tells you where your limitations are. And you want to put yourself to the limit.

If you're not pushing yourself to your limit, then like, what are you doing? You know what I mean? Like you need to give it your all, but you get one shot at life, right? You don't want to live. You don't want to be 80, 90 years old at the end, at the end of your life on your deathbed, regretting, you know, not working as hard when, when you could have. Now, I don't, you don't need, you don't want to live to work, but you also, you want to accomplish great things.

And you know, your income is your most powerful tool to reach financial freedom. And the goal isn't to make money. The goal is to reach freedom, which money provides a freedom.

That's, that's how I look at that. So, I mean, you can be different. That's fine.

And there was another comment that's mentioned something about, man, you kind of made it to where like cyber was your life. And yeah, I did. I did make it to where my content was like cyber life.

I got to be on it. And I still, I don't regret saying those things because I still believe that even after going through all that burnout, taking a break and saying, I'm going to slow down. I still believe like you still got to put an effort and I am going to put on a lot of effort after this break.

And that nothing can change that because of the reasons I mentioned earlier about like how I feel the world and you know, where the economy is going and all that. So I don't think burnout is avoidable. And if you're avoiding it, if you're avoiding burnout, then you're not pushing yourself hard enough.

And if you're not pushing yourself hard enough, you're leaving yourself on the table and when you leave stuff on the table, you're going to have regrets at the end of your life. That's how I view it. Right.

And like I said, you can be different. That's okay. I'm, I'm not trying to tell you that you got to work forever.

But I think if it's, but if you get it, if you're trying to break in, you do have to put a lot of work because the job market is tough and like I, even I, me, Kyser Clark, like I also get denied. I get rejected from jobs, even though I have eight years of experience, 19 certifications, a bachelor's and a master's degree in this stuff with all the connections that I have, 45,000 followers on LinkedIn right now, 22 subscribers on YouTube, like I'm fairly popular and I still get rejected and I can speak very well, as you know, you're listening to me right now. So I would assume that you would agree with me that I do speak very well.

So when I go to these interviews, I can, I know what I'm talking about and I still get rejected guys. So I, unfortunately, I, I wish the best for anybody who's trying to break in because it's, because there's not a lot of people who have the credentials that I do or the experience that I do. So I can only imagine how tough it is for them because it's, it's tough for me too, with, with all of my experience, all my credentials, still tough for me.

I should, I should be getting a job here soon. And then when I find one, we'll talk about the job market a little bit more because I'll have a full perspective because I went from looking for a job to having a job. And once I get one, I can give you some real advice.

So I'm like, Hey, this is how you land a job because I've done it in a tough job market. So I think my advice up to this point has been very solid and I'm, you know, I follow my own advice, right? I've been doing the same thing. I'm not really changing up the way I'm applying for jobs or the way I'm interviewing, like I've, it's all the same to me, like I still know the technologies and all that, but I don't want to talk about the job market too much anymore because that's going to be a dedicated episode.

This one's more about burnout. And someone mentioned a comment on that last podcast episode says something about, it seems like you have to put in that much effort in this field. And that's absolutely true.

Like I said, like you're going to have to put in the effort to, to break in and then even level up. And that's just where it's at. Unfortunately, if you've got to be high of a high passion for this type of work and you have to have a high tolerance for change, there's no coasting in this field, unfortunately.

And that's pretty much it guys. This is a shorter episode. I don't think I have much more to talk about on the topic.

So let me know what your thoughts and opinions are down in the comments, if you're on YouTube. If you enjoyed the show, hit the subscribe button, hit the like button. If you're on audio, rate the show five stars and I appreciate you watching.

I appreciate you listening. We've got way more episodes on the way. Going to get back to weekly releases on this podcast and weekly releases on my YouTube channel for certification reviews, career advice, videos, technical videos, and everything cyber.

So you can expect my goal is to do two uploads a week, one podcast episode and one like edited YouTube video. So that's what you can expect from my channel going forward. And I'll keep you updated with my journey.

You know, every time I get a new cert, you'll know. And every time when I find a role, you'll know, because I'm pretty open about what I've been doing in my career. Because if I share my stories and my perspectives and it's, it's going to help you out.

And like I said, you don't have to agree with me. That's just my thoughts. Cause I'm, cause I think a lot of people, I'm trying to figure all this out myself as well.

So I don't have it all figured out either. I'm figuring out as I go and I'm making mistakes as I go. And I'm like, just documenting the journey.

And when I document the journey, it's going to help a lot of people. And to all the people who are facing burnout, you're not alone. Had a ton of people reach out to me and my, and my DMs and told me that that episode about burnout and resonated with them.

So it's just, it's a very common thing in this field. Unfortunately, I don't know what we can do to fix it because there's everything changes so fast. And, you know, we got people who are on the outside looking in.

And if you don't want to lose your job, like you got to keep putting in the work. Right. And I, I'm a good example that I took my foot off the gas for a little bit and I made some mistakes and boom, I got canned and I don't want that to happen to you guys.

So if you want to avoid burnout, then I think the only option is to just not be in cybersecurity. And I hate to say it, but it seems like it's the only way you can avoid burnout because this field is very demanding and it requires an immense amount of brainpower. So hopefully you got some value out of this one guys.

And hopefully I see you on the next episode. Until then, this is Kaiser signing off. Take care.

Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening.