Welcome to the Hacker's Cache, the show that decrypts the secrets of cybersecurity one byte at a time. I'm your host, Kyser Clark. And in this episode, we're going to be talking about mastering the cybersecurity interview and salary negotiation strategies for success.

So for those who are listening to the last episode, you know that I recently completed a job search, which included tons of interviews and a salary negotiation. And a couple episodes ago, I had mentioned that you should always ask for more money when you get a job offer. And someone asked, hey, how do you negotiate salary? So that's a shout out to that viewer who asked that question on that particular episode, because that's what we're going to cover here.

Because salary negotiation, I mean, I think it's really fun. A lot of people get stressed out about it. But if you know what you're doing, it's not that stressful.

So we're going to dive right into the salary negotiation, because I think that's a more fun topic. And that's a topic that's not covered much in our space. I am not afraid to talk about money.

I think having money as a taboo subject is just quite frankly, a ridiculous social thing that shouldn't be a thing in our society. But it is. And not a lot of creators are talking about it.

So I know that's what some of you guys are really interested in. And it's interview strategies for success. That's been covered on some other channels, I'm assuming.

But I've never covered that. So we'll say that for the because that's more, you're more likely to find videos on that topic than salary negotiation. So without further ado, let's get into salary negotiation.

So you are almost guaranteed, if you're doing interviews with multiple companies, for an interviewer to ask you, so what are your salary expectations for this role? Not all employers, not all interviewers asked that on the first interview, but many of them do. What do you say? So there's a couple different strategies that you need to implement. And it just depends on the situation.

Everything depends on the situation. So let me give you the easiest example. When they when you ask this question, so if you already know their salary range, so when you go to apply for the job, some some companies list the salary range, and you should know what that salary range is because you applied for it.

And you should definitely reread the job description and make sure you understand what salary range is before you go in these interviews. So you should know that going into the interview. And if you are comfortable with that salary range, which you should be because you applied there, then you're golden.

All you have to say is, I see that the salary for this job is listed at range x to y, I'm comfortable if an offer is made within that range. And that's it. That's all you have to say.

That is all you have to say. And then they'll be like, great, and then I'll move on. Very I've never had an interviewer asked me a follow up question of salary if I said that.

Now, if there isn't a salary range posted on the job description, this is where it gets a little tricky, because you don't know what their range is. And you want to get as much money as you possibly can. And they want to pay you the least amount they possibly can.

And this is where the negotiation happens. So what do you do if the salary range is not listed? So I actually have a script here. And I'm going to just read it verbatim.

And you need to know. So I have memorized this. And I'll say a variation of this I've done it so many times, because I've done a lot of interviews.

But I'm going to read it word for word. And then you guys can tailor to your exact preferences. So if interviewer says, what is your expected salary? Typically, I will say something like this, I expect to be compensated fairly for my skills, knowledge and level responsibilities for this position offered for me.

And then if they ask again, like if they ask a follow up question, and I like what is fair, or any similar question that's asking for them to give you asking for a number, you need to hold your ground, and you need to not give them a number. And we're going to get into why you want to give a number after this. Because it's very important that you don't you don't you're not the first one that says a number.

So they asked for a follow up question, just say something along the lines of, we're still early in the interview process. So I can't exactly tell you since I'm not crystal clear on the role and responsibilities. Once we determine that I can add value to the organization, and then I'm a good fit, I'm positive we can reach a mutually beneficial agreement.

I have said that line so many times, I'm positive, we will reach a mutual beneficial agreement. And they interviewers love it when you say that I've never had interviewer pushback on that. And if they ask again, so if they ask any kind of question regarding salary, any context in which the interviewer is still pressing to give you a number, you need to say, like I said, I'm not sure how much value I bring to the organization at this time.

So I can't give you an accurate number. I'm sure you've made a budget for this position, what do you have in mind. And then typically, at this point, they're going to give you a number, right? I would say more times than not, in my experience, the interviewer, they're not really comfortable with that many pushbacks.

And a lot of times, if I asked for a number, they're just going to give it to you. Or if you don't give the number on your first response, and you ask that, if you just ask that question, they will tell you, in my experience. I don't think I've ever had it to where if I asked for what they had in mind, did they not tell me.

So if you just ask, they will most likely give it to you. And I've never had them not give it to me. So your experience may differ.

But in my experience, which is a lot, I've done a lot of interviews, they've never really pushed back on that. But if they're still pressing you for a number, after you ask, go ahead and tell them your range, okay? Because at this point, you've, you've deflected three times. And then on the fourth time, just go ahead and give them a range, but make the range higher than your minimum.

So you need to know what your absolute bare minimum is like what you will not work for, you need to know that going into any interview you do. And you need to make sure that the number that you say is significantly higher than that. So for example, if you want to make $120,000 a year, you should ask for $150,000 a year.

Okay, like you need to anchor it high, because if you're going to throw out the first number, you need to anchor it in your favor. Okay, don't give never give them your minimum never, because they're always going to give you less, they're always going to offer you less. Now, you don't want to go too much higher, because then you're gonna price yourself out of a job.

Because if you ask for a too high of a number, they just won't even consider you for the role. So you need to ask for something that's reasonable. And this is why you don't want to give out the first number.

Because if you throw out a too high of a number, they're just not going to look at you as a candidate anymore. But if you throw out too low of a number, then you're not going to get paid for what you're worth. And you always want to get paid for what you're worth.

So like I said, if you want to make $120,000 a year, let's say that's your minimum, you should be asking for about 150,000. Okay, if you want to make 150,000, you should probably be asking for 180,000. And the way you ask, when if you have to give like you deflect three times, and you finally you're going to be the one that's going to be the first one to sell a number, this is how you got to do it.

You have to say, at this stage of my search, I'm considering roles in the 120 to $150,000 range based on my market research and responsibilities I've seen so far. For example, that's the range you're looking for. It could be less could be more depending on your experience.

So and another thing I've also done is this, so I don't have this written down, but I've kind of like evolved it to this. So that's what your salary expectations and I'll say, Hey, it's still figuring out what the roles and responsibilities are. Also, this is a really good line to say.

Also, I look at the total compensation package, I know you guys have benefits, or maybe you don't, maybe you don't know that benefits, like, if you know that benefits, like you don't know exactly how much benefits you're going to be getting. You don't know what kind of bonuses they have. So I would say something like this, if I don't know if this has benefits, and even if you guys have, if you do have benefits, I don't know what the benefit package looks like.

So it depends on, you know, the benefits, like, obviously, if there's a lot of benefits involved, like, I will be willing to accept the lower salary. But if there's not many benefits, then I would expect a higher salary. And then almost every interviewer is will say, yeah, that's fair.

And then they'll usually tell me a number after that. So don't, don't be afraid to push back, okay? Do not be afraid to push back these employers, and recruiters, and HR professionals, and hiring managers, they expect you to negotiate your salary, you should absolutely be negotiating your salary, you should always ask for more money when a job offer is made, we're going to get into that here in a sec. So why do you give the first number? So I kind of already touched on that.

But generally speaking, in negotiation, the first one to throw out a number typically loses for the same reasons I already said, if you throw out too high of a number, they're just not going to be interested in what you have to say after that. If you throw too low of a number, then you're going, you're not going to get paid for what you're worth. Okay, so it's very important that you, you have a good idea what this type of roles pay, if you're going to throw out the first number, and you want to avoid throwing out the first number for as long as possible.

Like, like I said, you need to deflect at least at least three times, and maybe if you're bold, though, in a fourth deflect. And then maybe on the fourth or fifth ask, go ahead, throw out a number. I actually, this is a fun fact of the day.

There was an interview, role I was interviewing for, and they had asked me, so what did you make in your last role? I'm like, what this is, this is very important, by the way, this is another thing they're going to ask, what did you make in your last role, because they're basing, they want to base the new salary off of your last salaries role. And a lot of employers, they will give you a little bit more than what you made in your last role, because they want you to come over to them, right, if you're in a current role or in your last role. And if you say, hey, I made $130,000 in my last role, you know, they might come back with $140,000.

But what if their budget is $200,000? So if they ever ask you, what did you make in your last role, you say, and I mean, and this is, you gotta be pretty bold when you have to say this, you have to say, what I made in my last role has no bearing on what I should make in this role, because it's a different role at a different company in a different location with different benefits. And I'm basing and so in an interview, I actually said that four times, four times, I said that I repeated that line four times. And I still got a second interview.

And I was making this guy really uncomfortable, because I could just see it, because I kept pushing back, I refuse to tell him my previous salary refused. And he's like, yeah, but it's just what we do here. You know, we take the last salary we put in our system.

And I'm like, I'm like, I'm not giving you my last salary. I'm not doing it. And I was very blunt about it.

And like I said, I still got a second interview. So do not be afraid to push back guys. And the employers are going to respect this, by the way, if you have a backbone, and you are a strong negotiator, like they actually appreciate that, because that just shows that you're not going to get pushed around by customers, you're not going to get taken advantage by customers, if you're working in like a customer facing position, like a consulting role.

Now, obviously, you got to do this respectfully, right? But it's okay to be a little bold, it's okay to be, be stern, okay. And to be blunt, right? Because this is business at the end of the day, right? And you're not going to make it far if you're not if you're just gonna let people walk all over you and I have a backbone, I have a spine. So do not be afraid to have a backbone, guys.

Because it's never, it's never hurt me. I mean, maybe there's some that I wrote the wrong way. And I talked about that last interview.

But as far as salary negotiation goes, I don't think I miss a position because I use these negotiation tactics, I typically miss it. I don't I get declined for interviews, because I, I'm not meeting the experience that they're wanting, or I'm lacking a skill set, or they just don't like me personally, like as a person, because you gotta understand, like, if you get declined for a job, it's a lot has a lot to do with the culture fit. Okay.

And culture fits very important. And if you just have a different type of personality that doesn't mesh well with them, like they'll never hire you. But you don't want to be fake either.

So you want to be your genetic, authentic self. And if you're not like me, that's fine. I'm just saying, do not put on a fake face.

Okay? Like how I show up on these podcasts, this is how I would show up on interview this show up on the job. Now, once I get on the job, a little more, I would say a little more more jokes, but an interview, like I'm not going to say jokes. Well, maybe I have I have said jokes.

And I have teased some interviewers for having, you know, different tastes and sports teams and all that. So that that's fun banner, by the way, you should make them laugh. You should actually say a joke or two.

In an interview. I take that back. I have said jokes and they can.

That's a risk because your sense of humor might not be the same. But at least they get an idea like what type of person you are. So don't be afraid to like, you know, break the ice with a joke or like, you know, I've had interviewers ask me like, Hey, what's your favorite sports team? I'm like, Oh, I'm a Steelers fan.

And the other guy's like, I'm a Browns fan. And if you don't football, those are rivals. And I'm like, Ah, that's crazy.

But it's just a good banter, right? So don't be afraid to have that kind of banner and interview if the opportunity presents. So it's not that doesn't always happen. But it has happened in a couple couple slots.

Okay, so that's, that's how you do a solid negotiation, guys. It really isn't that complicated. Um, just don't be afraid to do it, practice it.

And just listen to what I said. So if an interviewer says, What is your expected salary, you say, I expect to be compensated fairly for my skills, knowledge and level responsibility for this position offered to me. They ask what is fair or any kind of question to ask for a number, say, we're still early in interview process.

So I can't tell you exactly what fair is, since I'm not crystal clear on the roles and responsibilities yet. Once we determine that I can add value to the organization, and then I'm a good fit, I'm positive we can reach a mutually beneficial agreement. Now, you don't have to have that word for word, guys.

But I'm positive we will reach a mutually beneficial agreement. That is a very good thing to say. And you can kind of have you can twist and you don't have to say it word for word.

Exactly. I've never said that word for word, unless I want to fill an interview. Because if you're on a video interview, which nine times out of 10 you are, you don't want to be looking at your other monitor.

Like I've been looking at the other monitor for this video interview, like it just looks like it's a turnoff. You want to look at my eyes, like that's you know, you want to look at my face. So you don't want to be looking at your other monitor.

And you want to have eyes on the camera when you're doing your interview. So never look at another monitor if you can help. Sometimes you have to, but if try to avoid it.

So that's why I never say the exact same thing. Now on a phone interview, you can, you can actually have this written down and you actually can say that word for word. You don't want to sound like a robot when you say it though.

Right? So make sure you practice it. Because I know a lot of people like you sound like a robot if it's scripted. So if they ask again, any context to say, like I said, I'm not sure how much value I can bring the organization at this time.

So I can't give you an accurate number. I'm sure you've made a budget for this position. What do you have in mind? They're still pressing you just go ahead and give up and just go ahead and throw out a number or or you can say what another thing I like to say is, Hey, I like looking at the total compensation package.

I need to understand what the benefits look like. And I need to understand, you know, you know, what kind of bonuses there are. And you don't need to say what kind of bonuses there are to say, I need to understand what the benefits look like.

And that's usually all you have to say there. And then a lot of times I've had employers send me the full benefits package, right? Like I've had them get off the phone and like, Hey, I'll say they'll be like, they'll send me the full benefits package. And then you can review the full benefits.

And then at that point, it's like, okay, like you kind of have enough information to like, give them a number. At that point, if they give you the full benefits, like go ahead and throw out a number, but try to avoid throwing out a number. If you can't really, you really should not be saying that number.

And like I said, if they, if you know the range, like it's, I've said it so many times, I see that this job is listed at this range. I am comfortable in that range. If a position is offered to me, and that is a perfectly great answer.

If they list the range and the job description on the, on the job posting. Now, what do you do after you receive the offer? So you went through the interview process, they give you an offer and it's a number that you like. Okay.

That's good sign. That is a very, very good sign. If they give you a number, you're like, Oh, that's great.

Okay. First thing you need to do, do not get overly excited. Do not get overly excited.

You got to hold that excitement in. Okay. You can be like, man, that's, that's more than I wanted.

Or like, you can be like, that's exactly what I wanted or, Oh, that's not too far off from what I wanted. Hold that excitement in. Okay.

And what you need to do is just listen to what they're saying. And then as soon as they're done, uh, in my experience, anytime they offer me a job, they will tell me the number over the phone is almost always how it is. It's never been over a video call.

It's always been over the phone. And I'll say, Hey, we're going to give you a position here at the company. We're look, we're, we're looking forward to have you on a team.

Hopefully you accept this offer. We're going to offer you $120,000, for example. So what you do that at this point, it'd be like, I appreciate, I appreciate the offer.

I need time to review this. Can you send it over in writing? That's what you need to say. Can you send it over and write if they haven't said that already? If they now sometimes they'll say, Hey, we're going to send you the offer in an email.

Um, but it's going to be $120,000. Sometimes they'll say like that, but if they don't say they're going to send over an email, say, I need to review the full, the full offer over email before I can make a decision. Okay.

And they'll say, yeah, absolutely. We'll send it to you. No, not a big deal.

And then at that point is never, ever, ever, ever accept the job offer where everyone has given to you ever. You need, in fact, do not ever accept the job offer within 24 hours of receiving it. You need time to think about it.

This is a huge, this is a life. This is a life altering event, guys. It's a life altering event.

You cannot make that decision within 24 hours. So you want to make your decision. You need a postponement as long as you possibly can.

I think 24 to 48 hours is fine. Um, if you get an offer on a Thursday, which I did my last job, I got offered on a Thursday and I said, I need time to think about over the weekend. Right.

But if you get an offer on Monday, Wednesday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, try to ask for 48 hours or 72 hours, try to get as much as you can, but you gotta get a feel for the company, right? You gotta get a feel for the company and you can reasonably ask. And the more money that's involved, the higher the role, the higher the scenario, the longer you can postpone that. So financial level role, you know, you don't want to be like, I need a week to figure this out.

Don't say that. Um, I wouldn't go over 48 hours. Right.

I would, I would respectfully ask for 48 hours. Hey, can I get, can I get two business days to think this over or 48 hours, however you want to phrase it. In my case, I got offered on Thursday.

I said, um, I'll let you know on Monday, I need a weekend to think it over. And then I said, great. And then on Monday, um, Monday I gave my response now.

And they'll always say something like, if I, if you have any questions, let me know. Perfect. Because you're going to review it in writing and there's going to be more information in that, in that offer than that they said in any interview or over the phone.

Um, because they can't, it's going to be like, you know, like pages and pages of an offer and they can't possibly tell you all that in a short period of time. So you're going to get way more information about the company in this offer. Okay.

The job title, the money, the benefits, all this stuff, how much vacation you're going to get. And if it's not in writing, you need to call the recruiter up and ask. So my last job offer, I noticed, Hey, how much PTO do I get? I have no idea.

And I called and he told me it was basically like unlimited PTO is essentially what he said. Um, and he took a long time to say it. I don't know why, but he did.

Um, he's like, yeah, he's like, he's like PTO. He's like, he's like, we don't really keep track of like, but you don't accrue it. Like you don't, it's weird.

Cause most companies like, you know, you work this long, you use as much PTO, this company was like, don't have it. So it's like weird. Um, it was a little weird there a little bit different.

I'm going to PTO. You can't, that's kind of a red flag, but you know, you can, you can look over, you can look over that if it's a good role or a good fit for you. Um, yeah.

So once you review that, the offer, if you have any questions, like if they don't say how much PTO you get, or if it doesn't say the benefits that's involved, um, or it's a number that didn't match what they said over the phone, then you definitely need to make a call and ask questions and then figure it out from there. Um, and then if you do make that call, what you need to say is at the end of the call, if you get the questions answered, you'll say something along the lines of, I would give him a heads up like, Hey, I'm going to give you a counter offer. Okay.

And I've, I've done that over the phone. My last role, I did say that. And then he was a little shocked by that.

And the reason why I was a little shocked by that was because during my initial interview process, they, so the job posting had a range between X and Y, and they had offered me the top of that range, like the very top. So I had like, it was the very top of that range. And during the interview process, the initial screening, I said, Hey, I see that the range is this and this.

And I was like, um, and this is one thing I did say, um, because the, the lower that range was far too low for me, but the upper range was like, I'm comfortable with the upper range. So I said, I see the job posting is this range in this range, but I'm going to expect to be close to your upper range. And that's what I said.

And when they offered me the job, they gave me the upper range. So when I made a counter, I said, I want to make a counter offer. It was a little bit shocked because they actually gave me the exact amount of money I mentioned, um, during the initial process.

But I phrased it like this, like, I was like, during the interview process, I realized that the roles and responsibilities is much greater than I initially anticipated. And, you know, we talked about, I bring a unique skill set to the team that you don't have, which was my offensive security skill set, which is a, is a harder skill set to have, uh, since I come from a pen desert background and they want to utilize that. And so I use that to my advantage, like, Hey, I'm bringing something to the team that's not on the team currently.

So I actually asked for more money and I didn't get exactly how much I asked for, but I did get more and I did break out of their range. So I got more money than, than the listed range. So you can do that, right? Those ranges aren't setting stone guys.

And I thought I almost, I almost, I almost accepted the offer on that higher range. But I was like, and I thought about, and this is why you need to think about it for multiple days if you can. Cause like, I was like, man, I probably won't negotiate this.

Cause I've already, um, I'm already at the range. And I was like, um, I've, I've, I told him I was comfortable at that number. Um, because I did say that, cause I was like, I was like, the range is X and Y. I was like, I would, I would want the full range.

I would want Y. And I was like, I already kind of threw out a number. But then I woke up one day, like two days later on the weekend, first thing came to my mind. And I wasn't even thinking about the job.

Our first thing came to my mind. I was like, I need to ask for more money. And like, the reason why I did, I was like, I got to follow my own advice.

Cause there was a podcast episode where I was like, always ask for more money. I'm like, always, always, always ask for more money. And it works out every time.

I've never not got more money. I've, I've received, how many dollars have I received since I've been coming out of the military at one, two, three, four, four. So, um, and I've accepted three of those.

And one of them I didn't accept. Cause I got, I had, when I was coming out, I actually had two job offers and I picked the better one. Um, and I didn't even negotiate the one I didn't accept because I, it wasn't worth my time, but it was a good, it was a good role, but I just feel like moving forward.

Um, which is a strategy that I recommend, like be willing to move. If it's a good fit, um, that would have been a great job to take if I actually would have moved, been willing to move anyways, always ask for more money guys. I've never not gotten more money.

So how do you ask more money? Good question. Good question. So always, and I mean, always at the bare middle, ask for 10% more at bare middle.

It has to be at least 10%. And the reason why is because they're not going to get offended over a 10% increase. They're just not 10% is a small amount to ask for.

And they're not going to get offended over that, but you also should not ask for 20%, more than 20%. So you should be asking between 10 to 20% more than their initial offer. Okay.

And like I said, don't be afraid to go over the cap. If it, if they list the cap, okay. We're going to say is, Hey, that's our cap.

We can't pay you more. Great. Okay.

Um, but in my case, they actually did break their cap. Um, if they're, if you're the right guy, the right girl, they will break the cap for you. Um, now granted they didn't break it by much, but they did.

Um, which is great. Um, so, and how do you know, how do you determine how much money to ask for? So, um, if it's below your minimum, you need to ask for your minimum, like no matter what. So let's say, um, let me, I got an offer.

Uh, I got an example here for you. So always counter 10%, no matter what you can ask for up to 20% more, if you have a higher risk factor. So what's a risk factor.

So if you're unemployed and you're about to lose your house and you're about to be homeless, then your risk factor is very, very high. Okay. That's the risk factor.

Like you need a job. So your risk factor is very high. So you're not in a position to ask for much more.

Okay. Now on the opposite side of the table, the company that you're interviewing with the company that gave you the offer, they also have a risk factor because you're going to get a sense of how desperate they are for you or how not desperate they are for how you're going to get a sense of how much do they need you? How much do they want you? And if you sense that it's high, if they really, really want you, you can ask for more money. But at the same time, if you really, really need a job, then you're taking a risk for asking for more money.

So you got to balance how much your risk factor is compared to how much they want you. Okay. Unless, unless it's 10%, unless 10% higher is less than your minimum.

In that case, ask for 10% higher than your minimum. So if your minimum is a hundred thousand dollars and they offer you $90,000, then you should be asking for $110,000. That's 10% higher than your minimum.

Okay. And then hopefully they come back with something that's above your minimum or at your minimum. Right.

So, and if it's below your minimum, then you just, you, you can negotiate again, like, don't feel, don't feel bad for going back and forth multiple times. Now I personally have never done that by the way. Um, because I, in my experience, um, when I asked for more money, I typically get what I asked for.

And actually I've actually gotten more than I asked for. That was a fun, that's a fun fact of the day, by the way. Um, I, that has happened to me.

I got more than I asked for, which is crazy. And I'm going to get into like why that happened here in a sec. So if the second offer is below the average market price, ask for 10% more than their second offer.

Assuming is lower than the last counter offer. If 10% more than their second offer is higher than my last offer, split the difference and ask for 10% more of that number. Why? Because you never split the difference, never split the difference.

There's a book actually called never split the difference. So, and because why not? You can't be afraid to ask for more money. And then, you know, if they offer a third offer, go ahead and accept that above your middle.

But I, I've never personally went back that many times. Okay. Personally, because usually I get what I need or what I want after I make my first counter offer or at least close enough.

Um, and because my last two jobs I have, I had what, I had a high risk factor because I was unemployed. I didn't have a job already, so I didn't have a high enough risk. That's another thing.

Your risk factor is like, if you have a high risk factor, like if you were like, if you're about to lose your house, you're unemployed, like you can't go back and forth that many times. I wouldn't risk it. I would not risk going back and forth that many times because you can insult people by, by doing that.

Okay. And they're, they can't, I have seen one LinkedIn post of someone getting a job revoked because they, they made a counter offer. Now that's very rare.

And most of the time, as long as you're asking them between 10, 20%, they're not going to get offended or revoked a job offer. So don't be afraid to ask for more money. Um, but both times, you know, my last two positions, I was unemployed when I was negotiating.

So I couldn't go back and forth that many times. But if you're in a position already and you're making a living, like I would actually, I would not feel bad going back and forth two or three times on that negotiation. Okay.

So I talked about, you know, how, how did I get more than I was, than I asked for? And this is how, so what you need to do when you ask for, when you say money. So we've been given examples that are like nice, clean, even numbers. When you throw out numbers in negotiation, guys, never, ever, ever, ever, ever.

I don't want to say never, ever, but generally speaking, it's best practice to throw out an odd number or like a not so like a not so even number. So always ask for a non-even number. And then, so this is how I do it.

So let's say my counter offer calculations come out to $120,000. Like I do all my calculations and I'm going to ask for 15% more because my risk factor is this and they want me this much. And I just determined 15% seems like a good spot to ask for, or if it's 20% or 10%, whatever it is, whatever you math formula you do.

Cause like, that's what you need to do. So that's how you determine like how much you're going to ask for. You just say, okay, they, how much, what's the risk factor of me? Like how, how much do I need this job? And how, how much do they need me to fill this position? Right? If, if they really, really want you and you don't really need this job, then you can ask for a full 20%.

Now, if they barely want you and you really, really need this job, then you have to ask for 10%. And if it's somewhere in the middle, 15%, 12%, whatever, just figure it out. Um, you can get a sense of how much they want you and how much you need the job based off of what you know.

So if your calculations come out to $120,000, for example, you would ask for something like $121,869. So 121,869. So like, well, why did I call that number? It's literally just random.

Like it's not even random. Like I just convert the first zero number to a one, just whatever the first zero is convert to a one. Um, and then I do eight, six, and then nine, like after that.

So the first zero, I see, I convert to a one, the second zero, I see, I convert to an eight, second zero, or sorry, the third zero, I see, I convert to a six. And then if there's a fourth zero, I convert that to a nine. Why, why do I do that? Okay.

This is really the, this is literally the reason. Okay. So the first number I convert to a one, because if you convert the first zero to a one, um, which is for 121,000, for sorry, for 120,000, if I convert the first zero to a one, I'm asking for 1000 more.

So, um, you're technically if it's 20%, like you're going slightly over 20%, which is okay. Um, well, I don't know if that's okay. But let's say we're asking for 15% more and the calculation comes out to 120,000.

I'm going to ask for 121. Let's say, let's say 20% higher is, um, let's say I want to do 20% higher and it comes out to 120. I don't know.

I'm not going to ask for more than 120. I'll ask for like 119. So I'd actually go down a thousand dollars just to make it a non-even number because non-even numbers, why do you want to do a non-even number? I actually didn't even explain that.

You want to do a non-even number because it seems more calculated. It seems like, you know, what you're talking about. It's calculated.

It seems calculated, right? It doesn't seem like a one. It seems like a need, like, Hey, like you've done your research type of thing, right? It seems like, you know, what you're talking about and you've done your research. That's literally the reason it just looks more official.

So why do I convert the first? Yeah. The first number first one, because converting it to any other number is going to be too much of a raise, right? A thousand dollars is kind of a lot of money. Um, so one is perfectly fine for the first, for the first one.

Um, why the second number eight and the third number six, my favorite number is 86. That's literally the reason why my favorite, that's what I wore in football, uh, when I play football. So 86 and then why nine? Because 69.

So it's a funny name. So that's funny. But, um, let's say, um, let's say my calculations come out to, um, $122,000 so that I would ask for 122,186.

Okay. That's what I would ask for. Let's say the calculations come out to 123,400.

I would ask for 123,418. Let's say that the calculations come out to 121,220. There's only one zero.

So I would just convert that one zero to a one. So it would come out to 121,221. So it like, that's my thing.

You can just do literally do whatever you want. Like the whole point of this is just to pick a, not like a random numbers. Like that's the whole point of this.

Like you don't want zeros to be in, to be in it, or at least you don't want it to end in a zero and you that's just examples. Like the less rounded numbers you have in there, like the ones that end in zero, um, the better. So the whole point is just to get rid of all the zeros.

Essentially. You don't want to have any zeros in the number because it looks calculated. So how did I get more than what I was offered? So, uh, I did say this on my last, uh, no, my last, but a few podcasts ago, cause I was very transparent about my salary and I didn't even make this kind of money.

So I'm, okay with saying this. So my first ever job offer that I accepted was for $133,000. But I didn't even ask for that.

I asked for 132,186. So I asked for $132,186 because, um, so they offered me $120,000. Okay.

And then I came back and countered offered 132,186. And they came back to me and they said, we're going to give you 133. They, cause they did, they couldn't stand that non-even number.

They could not stand that non-even number. So they rounded up, they rounded up in my favor. They're like, you asked us for a weird number.

So we just, we just rounded up for you. I was like, perfect. So that's how I got my more than what I asked for.

So that's another reason why you should ask for non-even numbers, because employers like even numbers. So they might actually round up in your favor. And as a prime example of that, like I said, I didn't make that kind of money.

Um, that was my first ever dollar for that got revoked because the, it got revoked because they don't work disappeared. Like the client canceled arm or something. I don't know.

They didn't need me. So that's what you got to do. So to reiterate, man, we're already at 40 minute Mark.

So we're not even going to, we're not even talking about interview tips. This has been all solid. It's been a masterclass on salary negotiation, but I pretty much said everything there is to say guys.

So, um, money, it shouldn't be a taboo subject and you should be not afraid to ask for more money. In fact, you should be asking for more money. And anytime someone is offering you money and it you'll, you'll be surprised.

Like you, I have never not got more money by asking for more money. And when it comes to business, when it comes to business, don't be afraid, guys, be bold, be bold. Um, how do you learn this stuff? So, like I said, this is only a 40 minute podcast and I'm trying to cram as much information as I possibly can in a short amount of time.

And I know this is a longer video, but man, I've studied this for weeks. I've started this for weeks. So what can you study? So the first thing I did was I went to Udemy and there's actually salary negotiation courses on Udemy.

So I'm gonna look at my other tab here. Um, this specific one that I did was salary negotiation, how to negotiate a new job offer pro by Jim Hopkinson. It's a $12 and 99 cents right now.

Uh, it looks like it's on discount. It says 64 99, but everything's on discount in Udemy. So, um, yeah, I mean, $13 to get thousands more, totally worth the investment guys, totally worth the investment.

By the way, he does sell a book as well. So it's worth looking into Jim Hopkinson, Jim Hopkinson's book. If you want to get in that, I didn't read his book because his book content was, it seemed like it was the same thing as his video content.

So I just didn't get the book, but there are other books that I did purchase and actually I'm on my desk right here. Um, honestly, I can't remember which of these are the best. Um, but they're all very good.

So the first one is fearless salary negotiation, a step-by-step guide to getting paid what you're worth by Josh duty, duty spelled D O O D Y. And I'm holding it up on video for those who are on video, audio listeners. You're just going to have to remember Josh duty, fearless salary negotiation. Um, this is a top book on Amazon, by the way, I only buy books that are like, you know, well-reviewed and purchased a lot, but this is a great book and it's going to teach you, um, great stuff.

And by the way, not everything I said is going to match up with here because I've, I've read multiple books and I've tailored my own little flavor. And that's also another thing I was like, like, you don't want to do exactly what I do because I have a unique way of doing things. So you need to like study the resources and then put your own twist on it.

But a lot of these rules, like, you know, you don't want to throw out the first number. Like that's kind of universal. The next one is negotiating your salary, how to make $1,000 a minute by Jack Chapman.

So here's that book for the video watchers. Great book. These are all great books.

I would not recommend them if they weren't next up is 71 brilliant salary negotiation, email samples by Lewis C. Lin. So here's this one. This one's a little bit of a thicker book because it's got 71 emails.

And that's another thing that I almost forgot to mention guys, never, ever, ever negotiate your salary over the phone or in a video. Always, always do it in email, always do it in email. Okay.

And in fact, I'm going to read my latest salary negotiation email that I had sent to give you a real world example of like something that actually works. So let me look at my email here. Alright, so this is the actual word for word, I'm not going to give you my current salary or what I asked for in this particular one, because I don't like telling my current salary.

I'm okay with saying my last salaries, but I don't want to like, and normally if you get me in a private conversation, guys, I'm, I will tell you my salary, but I don't want to put it out on the internet because I don't want to put the company's business out there. So if you're, if you see me at a con and you want to know how much money I make, like just ask me, I'll tell you. I'm not, I just tell you, but so I will not tell you the exact number I asked for, but I'll give you the exact email I did.

So person's name, recruiter's name. Thank you again for extending the job offer to join company name. I sincerely appreciate the offer and have enjoyed getting to know the team throughout the interview process.

After taking some time over the weekend to review the position and reflect on our conversations, I'd like to discuss the conversation package. During the interview process, I gained a much deeper understanding of the role scope and the value I can bring to the company. In addition to supporting your cloud and infrastructure security initiatives, we discussed leveraging my office security and penetration testing experience to help expand the security services company can offer its clients.

The opportunity is exciting for me. The combination of experience across cyber defense, penetration testing, application security, cloud security, AI security, and cyber security consulting positions, me to contribute beyond the roles, core responsibilities. And I firmly believe that by the way, I do feel like I was, I am overqualified for my current position.

So that's why I was able to just say that given the scope of the role and the value I expect to bring to company name, I would like to respectfully propose an annual salary of big numbers, much more than what they asked, much more than what they offer me. I understand this is above the initial figure we discussed, but I believe it better reflects the experience certifications and specialized experience I will bring to the team as well as the additional value I hope to provide as company continues to expand a cyber security offering offerings. Excited about the opportunity to join company and in confident we can reach a agreement that reflects the value I bring to the team.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks again for your time and consideration. Respectfully, guys, Jay Clark, and then my email, so you can share my phone number and all that stuff.

So that's a real world example. Did they give me that number that I asked for? No, but they did give me more money. Okay, so that's great.

Now. Okay, here is a number another example that worked for me. Okay.

So this was my first company that I worked for out of the military. This was my second job offer that I accepted. And this one I will tell you the numbers because you guys already know how much I made if you listen to the podcast episode that where I mentioned that it's a previous salary, so I have no I have no problem telling you what the numbers on this one.

Okay, keep it so to give you some context, the salary is going to seem lower because they had like some revenue sharing. Okay. So keep that in mind.

And like I said, if you want to know exactly how that revenue share worked, then listen to that podcast episode where I talked about salary. I can't remember what it was a few episodes ago. So I said, person's name, so recruiters name, I am thrilled about the offer to join company as a penetration tester, the company's commitment to cybersecurity excellence and innovation aligns perfectly with my career goals and professional skills.

I am grateful for the offer of $80,000 plus revenue sharing. However, considering my extensive experience and qualifications in cybersecurity, I would like to discuss adjusting the base salary to better reflect my expertise and the value I can bring to the team. With six years of dedicated cybersecurity experience, a robust educational background, keep in mind this was two years ago, I'm at eight years now, a robust educational background because I had a bachelor's degree in 12 industry certifications.

So I'm at 19 now. So I've grown since then. I am well prepared to contribute significantly to companies operations.

My recent work involved conducting detailed penetration tests across 513 systems or servers identifying 48 vulnerabilities for four major clients. I am eager, I'm eager to bring this targeted and impactful analysis to company giving the responsibilities of this role and the prevailing industry standards. I propose a revised base salary of 98,186.

So it's literally that 186 I talked about earlier. I like to end things in 186. This so I wonder how much more I asked for.

I asked for over $18,000 more, which is a, I think it's quite a it's quite a jump. This adjustment aligns with the market rates for similar roles and more accurately reflects the contributions I can make. I am I am keen to continue this conversation and find a mutually beneficial agreement that reflects the value I am excited to bring to such an esteemed team.

While I am comfortable finalizing details over email. I am also open to a phone or video conversation if that is preferable. Oh, that actually goes against my advice.

I just said never talk about salary over the phone. But honestly, now I think about it. If they want to have a conversation about it, then be willing to have a conversation.

But I think initially, initially, always ask for the more money in an email. And then go ahead and offer a video or phone discussion. I like that idea better.

So I take back what I said never when I say never, never make your first initial offer over a phone or video, or counter offer, make that an email. And then I also said, I'm taking the OSWA exam all day tomorrow, which is funny, because I actually accepted my first I accepted the offer during this. During this exam, I'm taking the OSWA exam all day tomorrow, Wednesday, May 1, so I can only communicate on my breaks, which would be a only a few minutes throughout the day.

Hopefully, you understand. So I just give that heads up because I wasn't checking my email. Thank you for considering my proposal.

I am enthusiastic about the possibility of contributing to company and advancing our shared goals inside of security. I am looking forward to your response. Sincerely, my name is Sigature Blonde.

So that's a real world example. How much money did they offer me? So they came back and offered me $85,000 base salary plus revenue share. And they said, you should be somewhere in the $115,000 mark because the revenue share was quite significant, which is why that's a little lower for a pen testing role.

So I got $5,000 more by sending one email, guys, $5,000 by sending one email. So it's worth it to study this stuff. And that's how you get like, that's why you read stuff like these email samples, you can get ideas, but you obviously want to tailor it to their company and your experience.

Obviously, you don't want to copy anybody word for word. Okay, so this was that job offer, the first ever counter offer I ever made. And this was another this is another example of something I actually did to get more money.

So dear person's name recruiter. This one was actually really formal. I said, Dear Miss, and then her name.

Normally, I don't put Mr. Mr. But it was my first one. So I was like, being really formal and you know, being formal in these in these emails is is you need to be as formal as possible because you're this business and you're asking for more money. So the more formal the better.

So I would put a title Miss Mr. Doctor, whatever. Mrs. Anyways, I am writing to express my gratitude for the offer to join company as a senior penetration tester. I am genuinely excited about the opportunity to contribute to a company with such a strong reputation in cybersecurity and clear commitment to innovation and employment and employee development.

This opportunity aligns perfectly with my professional ethos and career aspirations. How to review the job for in detail. I wanted to discuss the proposed base salary.

I greatly appreciate the offer of $120,000. I however, after careful consideration, after carefully considering the specific responsibilities of this role and reflecting my professional qualifications and experience, a slight adjustment would be more in line with the value I can bring to company. With almost six years of dedicated experience in cybersecurity, a strong educational background in cybersecurity management policy, and 11 industry recognized certifications, I am confident in my ability to deliver exceptional results.

My career has been marked by significant achievement and identifying and mitigating complex security vulnerabilities as seen in my work with intern company and United States Air Force. My proficiency with various industry standard tools and methodologies positions me well to make an immediate impact in this role. Concerning the depth of my experience and industry standards for similar senior roles, I propose a base salary of $132,186.

This figure more accurately reflects the level of experience and specific skills I bring, especially in a role critical to the company's success. I am very much looking forward to the possibility of joining the company name. I am open to further discussion on this matter.

I intend to reach a mutually beneficial agreement that reflects the value I am eager to add to such an esteemed team. I like that word, esteemed team. So always compliment their team, by the way.

The more you compliment their team, I like that word, esteemed. I have used that in interviews, for sure. Like if they ask you why you want to do an interview or why you want to join a company, be like, I'm looking forward to joining an esteemed team.

Like if you, you know, say something like that, it really goes a long way. Thank you for considering my request. I am enthusiastic about the opportunity to work with company name and contribute to the company's exciting work in cybersecurity.

I am look forward to your response. Respectfully, Kyser J. Clark, email signature. So there you go.

That's three real world examples that I have actually sent that has gotten me more money and a lot more money guys. Well, that one didn't give me more money because I actually didn't work for that company because they revoked the job offer because like I said earlier, the job just disappeared because the work disappeared. But you can make, you can look quite literally, this book right here says make $1,000 a minute, like negotiating your salary, how to make $1,000 a minute, Jack Chapman.

It's a fact because it don't take that long to write these emails, guys. You can use Chatty BT and AI to help you draft up stuff. That's okay.

So it's, in fact, I did use AI to help me write these. So there's that. But those are real world examples and that I've used and I've gotten more money.

I've gotten offers with more money. And then you can do a similar fashion for asking for raises. Now that's a different topic for a different day.

We're actually running out of time, but asking for a raise, very, very similar process guys. But like I said, different topic for a different day. Sorry, we didn't get into the interview tips guys, because this has already been a pretty long episode.

But man, it's been a masterclass on salary negotiation. And hopefully you got some value out of this one. If you have any questions, feel free to drop them in the comments and I will answer them.

But like I said, listen to this podcast and read the books that I mentioned, take some Udemy courses and really develop your own methodology with salary negotiation. This is what's worked for me. And hopefully it will work for you.

And hopefully you got value out of this. And I know you did because no one talks about salary negotiation, man. Come on, man.

No one talks about this stuff. That's why if you're on audio, you got to give me a five stars rates to show five stars on Apple podcasts or Spotify. And if you're on YouTube, hit the like button, if you liked the video, which I know you did, because you got this far, you're like, we're like an hour in now.

And then hit the subscribe button for more cybersecurity content that I bring you and nobody else will bring you. Cause I know, like I said, who's, who's given you a masterclass on cybersecurity salary negotiation? Kyser is. So hit the subscribe button.

You're not going to find this information anywhere else. So thanks for watching. Thanks for listening.

Hopefully enjoyed the show. Hopefully I'll see you on the next episode. Until then, this is Kyser signing off.